Follow up exchange – post edited
To Joe Bloggs:
Ok bro – thanks again as always. I thank God again for you, and I have much to learn from you, taikoh!
You may have to wait a while re Gordon Fee. His book is a massive volume, nearing 1,000 pages apparently! I’m heading to Koorong tonight while the sale is still on!
—–Original Message—–
From: Joe Bloggs
Sent: Tuesday, 9 November 2010 5:13 PM
To: Teh, Ian
Cc:
Subject: Re: RE: RE: Strange day !
I am also curious what Gordon Fee has to say and await your conclusion with anticipation.
The issue of speaking in tongues is debated over the decades and I don’t think there is any satisfactory conclusion on both sides. For me, it is a matter of accepting our differences and moving on to build His kingdom. It is what binds us.
As you well know, I have high opinion of your views and had not and would not seek to curtail you in any way only to caution you in particular on this topic of speaking in tongues that you might not get the answer you want that it could be a matter of accepting the difference of opinion and moving on. I see the big picture of people on both sides wanting to please and serve God with all their hearts.
I was not trying to stir or provoke anything when I approached you on Sunday, and emailed you today. I was coming from, as I said previously, a love angle, that I felt for you, that knowing your views on matters such as this, that you might have a discomfort sitting through a sermon like that and hence purely out of concern for your wellbeing, I raise the subject to hopefully, let you get it out to hopefully move on. I am being totally honest here.
I say again that I had some concern through the sermon but felt that the Speakers are probably in desperation and clutching onto anything that gives them hope and articulating them. I also felt that perhaps some of our people (my opinion, there are probably one or two, at least) needed to hear certain aspects of the sermon. So I feel we should just move on from here…
Sabar la Bro !
———————————
Earlier Email Exchange: Names Substituted…
Hi Joe Bloggs
Gordon Fee is a theologian with a twist – he is a revered academic in Regent College in Vancouver who is an ardent Pentecostal proponent. This background makes him a writer not to be missed, for someone like me.
I too would rather forget about such discourse. It often leads to tiring discussions with no new insights or edifies anyone.
I too like taking the high road. This is the best way to ensure we continue to obey the Lord in terms of building each other up, and therefore building His Kingdom.
However, we cannot always avoid getting our hands dirty in trying to bottom things out, as much as we can. We have to – at some point. I feel we have a duty to do this. To ignore such details can be a form of laziness or neglect too and can be a disservice to our members.
Personally for example, I have attended Wednesday PM’s and be totally lost and not able to think or concentrate because others around me are speaking in tongues in a manner which makes it impossible for one to do anything other than (1) to also speak in tongues myself or (2) switch off completely.
Often in these meetings, I have no idea what went on, didn’t feel any touch from the Lord or understood Him or my brothers or sisters better and generally just not able to contribute or derive anything. I will be honest with you and say often I feel I have wasted my time trying to follow proceedings. I go anyway because this is a body activity and we need corporate prayer and I have to put aside personal dislikes.
What happens however if the PM phenomenon is replicated during Sunday Service? Do you not think a prevalence of messages from the pulpit such as last Sunday’s increases the possibility of this happening? I’m afraid we’d be closer to approaching the sort of chaos Paul warned us about in his letters to the Corinthian church. That would be a warning bell for me and I am particularly sensitive to such messages because I cannot find any biblical teaching to support this.
Maybe I have been wrong and maybe Gordon Fee is the one to teach me this, but until someone instructs me clearly what the Scripture teaches on this, how does one just “go with the flow”? Going with the flow can be a carnal thing. It is the hallmark of the “Day of the Aquarius” generation of post modernism where the truth is less important than how we treat one another.
Don’t get me wrong, Joe Bloggs – I understand the need to emphatise with others and obey the Lord in terms of loving our brothers and sisters. How else are we to build each other and the body of Christ? I also appreciate the enormity of the challenge the Speakers must be going through. For all my thoughts about legal battles such as the one Speaker appears to be fighting, I don’t for one moment underestimate what he is going through.
We must accept that we can and must separate a questioning attitude from our ability to love and show concern. They are not mutually exclusive. I can doubt what you say and question your basis for saying it but also (at the same time) love you and help you and support you in what you are going through.
Also, at no point do I question that it is never by might or by power, and I constantly seek to rely on the Holy Spirit in all that I do. That does not mean however that don’t ask, question, do, think, plan etc. In fact can anyone challenge the proposition that when one is able to exercise one’s own faculties the most, one is best able to deliberately and consciously acknowledge and rely on the power of the Holy Spirit?
Speaker’s wife message appears to be: pray in tongues and see the results. Is this biblical? James teaches us that it is the prayer of a righteous man – not tongues – which is effective. Is she suggesting those who don’t pray in tongues are less effective or are somehow missing out in some way?
I don’t think I have been quick to comment – I have not shared my thoughts with anyone. I said something only because you approached me on Sunday. I’m afraid you were the “agent provocateur” this time! 🙂
Your encouragement to me has always been to be open. To me that means to learn more and find out more, not to accept all things in an unquestioning manner and to accept all as the right teaching. If I come to understand the errors of my ways, I will change and accept the right way. That to me is what being open means, not to cease questioning. We have a duty to point out what is wrong. Sometimes by the time we observe an effect, it may have reached a stage where heaps more work is required. It is better to arm ourselves and then point out these defects before it hits the airwaves.
“Listening to the Spirit in the Text” is another Gordon Fee I am reading now. I think it is a prelude and prepares me for his more substantive book: “God’s Empowering Presence: The Holy Spirit in the Letters of Paul”. I am hoping God can speak to me even more clearly through His servant through these books.
It is a long journey, and we need each other – people of different make up’s. You have taught me how to show more love and reach out more. I hope you don’t in the process, curtail my tendencies to be upset with wrong teachings. That is also a necessary trait.
Cheers.
—–Original Message—–
From: Joe Bloggs
Sent: Tuesday, 9 November 2010 3:24 PM
To: Teh, Ian
Cc: Teh, Ian;
Subject: Re: RE: Strange day !
I have not heard of Gordon Fee. I was hoping you’d forget about the “chat” but happy to do so. I am not sure if it would establish anything as I have a feeling it could be down to a dry theological approach to Christianity or an experiential approach, or a mixture of both. I don’t know but if you have an open mind to explore I am happy to share my experience.
Over the years, I feel the most fundamental thing is the love of God, His grace and how much we want to be close to Him that would define our experience of Him and His love which would drive our love for others and service for Him. I learn to be more accepting of how others wish to express their faith which if it doesn’t contradict the fundamental love of God and salvation through faith thing, I let them go.
The other thing I often stress is maturity. Let’s rise above all this differences and progress the Kingdom cause. As long as we live in thie imperfect world, there will be differences.
> Teh, Ian <IanTeh@email.com> wrote:
>
> Bro
> I’m planning to get a book by a guy called Gordon Fee, and read up
> some more on this.
> We should have a chat at some point – I remember we agreed to have a
> glass of red to talk about some events following X Men’s
> funeral about a year and a bit ago.
>
> There are some pretty fundamental points of difference between my
> upbringing and ICC-Cornerstone beliefs which barring any instructions
> from Gordon Fee will remain unresolved and potentially a source of
> considerations at some point in the future.
>
> Cheers
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: Teh, Ian
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 November 2010 10:51 AM
> To: Joe Bloggs
> Subject: RE: Strange day !
>
> Thanks bro for your counsel and encouragement – always appreciated.
> So should I say well done on the cholesterol? I think I will. Well done!
> May you keep up the good health management.
>
> I will heed your counsel. I just want to say that I have seen
> congregations getting into strife because of messages like what we
> heard on Sunday. Speaker’s was on balance, not so problematic. It was
> when Speaker Wife came on that it all took on a different shade and I must
> say I disagree with what she said, almost entirely.
> I have “let it slide”, as I have in the past but will always have my
> ears up as you well know.
> We move on as always.
>
> Cheers
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: J Bloggs
> Sent: Tuesday, 9 November 2010 10:42 AM
> To: Teh, Ian
> Subject: Strange day !
>
>
> Hi Bro
>
> [deleted]
>
> You had been on my mind the past few days as a result of the Sunday
> sermon…I said to you on Sunday and I say to you again, just let it
> slide. You’re always going to get that odd thing here and there but I
> can understand Speaker’s own life journey and where he is right
> now is that I think his back is against the wall, he has run out of
> options and he can only rely on God and in the context of where he is,
> not by might, nor by power but by His Spirit…and God only knows what
> he is struggling through right now…
>
> God knows when and who needs a reminder like this every now and again.
> As much as I felt a bit concern during the sermon delivery, I thought
> to myself a few people I know of would probably need to hear it, quite
> literally.
>
> I had in the past been accused of “preaching”, announcing and saying
> things from the pulpit to direct an “attack” either directly or
> indirectly on someone in the congregation. I was always perplexed
> everytime (which is rare of course) I hear that allegation and felt it
> in my conscience that I had not so I moved on and trust that God is
> speaking to whomever and generally.
>
> Don’t be quick to comment but observe and monitor the reaction from
> the congregation and in this sort of cases, only mitigate if it
> becomes a problem. Otherwise, let’s just trust the maturity of our
> people and how the Lord will Himself look after His flock…As a
> preventative measure, you could bring it up with TF but I am afraid it
> is going to be difficult to manage every speaker in what they speak
> which is why I say that you will get this oddity every once in a while
> and this is not all bad in that it will test the maturity of our congregation.
>
> Anyway, sabar la…
>
> Take care Bro
>
Ante 